Feature un-request

Posted June 21, 2008 by Jim

I was reading this excellent review of competing app OmniFocus, which severely criticises the UI:

http://db.tidbits.com/article/9594?rss

In particular, I note the comment that tasks got lost when projects were collapsed:

And another thing. It often happens to me that I switch from Project mode to Context mode and find my actions are gone! After a moment of heart-stopping panic, I realize that for some inexplicable reason, Context mode has appeared with all the context headers collapsed - the triangle next to each context points right, not down. Just click each triangle, or choose View > Expand all, and the actions are back. The same sort of thing often happens when I use "grouping"; for example, to discover what actions have pending due dates, you can group projects by "Due". But the "Due within the next week" heading is collapsed, so you think that no projects are due within the next week - wrongly. Indeed, this entire issue with collapsed headers makes me wonder whether the hierarchy, in a mission-critical task list such as OmniFocus, should be collapsible in the first place. Perhaps a full-fledged outliner is not an appropriate vehicle for GTD after all.

This is exactly why I'm so pleased that TaskPaper does not allow projects to be collapsed.

Please continue to not offer this option ;-)

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Matthew Crider - June 21, 2008 12:41 PM

This is exactly why I'm so pleased that TaskPaper does not allow projects to be
collapsed.

Please continue to not offer this option ;-)

I could not more emphatically disagree!!

What OmniFocus does poorly is that it collapses when swapping modes. All that is necessary is for a change of view to NOT automatically collapse projects. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water! Classic overreaction.

Please, Jesse, offer collapse/expand!! As one who goes all the way back to the original Thinktank outliner and who spent many profitable years with Grandview, I can tell you unequivocally that collapse/expand is a great feature.

Matt

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Jordan Sherer - June 21, 2008 12:56 PM

I have to disagree as well, as I have implemented collapsing projects in TodoPaper (TaskPaper for Windows), and have had no complaints whatsoever. You can see the action near the end of my screencast here:

http://widefido.com/products/todopaper/help/scr...

Best,
Jordan

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Nick Brawne - June 21, 2008 4:15 PM

Collapsing projects / folding is something that people have been asking for since day one. http://hogbaysoftware.com/search?q=folding

The great thing about adding a feature is that if someone does not want to use it they don't have to, but if they do, its there and usefull.

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Jim - June 21, 2008 6:27 PM

...but if you didn't know that you'd used it, you've got a dozen tasks that get hidden and forgotten about.

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Matthew Crider - June 21, 2008 6:32 PM

I've worked with outliners since the 80's and I've never encountered that as a problem. Click the plus or the triangle.

And, it doesn't have to be the case that when changing the view, the projects are collapsed. I don't know what's the case with OmniFocus.

Matt

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Jim - June 21, 2008 6:42 PM

Yes, I have outliner software, too. TaskPaper isn't an outliner.

At the very least, I'd want a preference to completely disable any project folding features.

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Nick Brawne - June 21, 2008 7:06 PM

Jim, Do you have that same problem of losing files when using the finder in list view ?

Edit by Jesse Please see Nicks comment below. He didn't mean to offend and has apologized. Thanks Nick!

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Jim - June 23, 2008 4:52 AM

That's pretty patronising. Patronising is when you talk down to people.

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jesse - June 23, 2008 6:20 AM

Nick might have worded that better, but I don't really think he was trying to be patronizing. Please lets not let this discussion degenerate, on great thing about the Hog Bay Software forums is that we are generally very good at not yelling at each other.

Plus Nick has a point. I'm strongly in the no collapsing camp, but I happily use collapsing hiearchies all over the place. In fact the application that I use all day (Xcode) is full of collapsing hiearchies, and I don't loose track of things, well most of the time I don't.

So why do I think TaskPaper is different?

  1. TaskPaper is designed for managing projects and tasks. In the end it is just a glorified todo list. And one of my biggest problems with todo lists is that for me they tend to grow boundlessly. A todo list that easily manage more tasks then I can actually do doesn't work very well for me. I fill it up. And eventually I discard it and start over, for me tracking to much is just as problematic as not tracking anything.

I still run into this problem with TaskPaper, but since everything is presented in a single screen before me I catch the problem sooner, prioritize, and delete what I can't do. And since TaskPaper is just text to begin with I don't feel the draw to just throw it all away and start fresh in TextEdit.

  1. That brings up point two, TaskPaper must not be worse then TextEdit. I started the TaskPaper project after realizing that after spending years working on my Hog Bay Notebook and Mori outliners I still tended revert to using TextEdit files to keep myself organized. It's hard to quantify why exactly, but for me there is a certain point when too many features and choices (even invisible ones that aren't in my face) make me want to run to another program. I'm not sure that I have a good logic for it, but I'm almost certain that adding hierarchies to TaskPaper would be just that sort of feature.

I realize that this might not all seem very logical to those of you who want hierarchies, but I hope it at least explains where I'm coming from.

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Matthew Crider - June 23, 2008 8:35 AM

Jesse,

I really don't understand where you're coming from, because I've never experienced what you've experienced. But, I respect your opinion. Our brains all work differently - what's easy for some is difficult for others. I cannot comprehend aurally very well at all. My wife is very verbal. She cannot understand why I cannot understand her when she gives me soooooooo much information verbally. Lots of miscommunication - but somehow we've made it work for 30 years.

So, why don't you make another product - an outliner - as I suggested lower in this thread? It doesn't have to be fancy with all kinds of bells and whistles. I would definitely buy it.

Thanks, Jesse.

Matt

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jesse - June 23, 2008 8:52 AM

It's highly doubtful that I'll create another outliner. In the end I try to design things mainly for myself, and hope others find them useful too. If I tried to design something that I wouldn't really use myself the result wouldn't be very good I think.

I haven't kept close track of Mac outliners recently. But if you do want support for collapsing entries you've got lots of options. For really simple take a look at http://www.a-sharp.com/opal/opal.html. Or if you need more features/styles/etc OmniOutliner is really nice.

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Matthew Crider - June 23, 2008 10:17 AM

There isn't a text-based outliner similar to your TaskPaper. Is there a technical reason you can't code collapsing in TaskPaper? Or, is it purely your preference?

I use TaskPaper for outlining now (as well as for Tasks - just as I did for many years with Grandview). There are three main reasons: 1) It is simple and uncluttered, but with some powerful, easy-to-access features, such as tagging and focus, 2) because it is text-based I can use the mdimporter for text files I had programmed for me enabling me to place my Spotlight file tags inside the file instead of in the ds_store, and 3) no other outliner out there in the Mac world has Keywords metadata (making the task of creating a mdimporter incredibly difficult) and I don't know of any that are text based.

So, if you were able to convert TaskPaper as is into an outliner with the added feature of collapsing, I would buy it. Please consider it.

Thanks.

Matt

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jesse - June 23, 2008 12:59 PM

Is there a technical reason you can't code collapsing in TaskPaper? Or, is it purely your preference?

It's for both reasons. The basic model could support it, but it would require more work to actually design, implement, and maintain.

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Matthew Crider - June 23, 2008 4:00 PM

Jesse,

Here's an example of where collapsing would be HELPFUL in task management. I just came across this one today.

I have clients with which I need to ask questions in order to provide them with the necessary consultation. Under a project for one of my clients, I have a task called "answers to questions" and it is tagged "@waiting." I have several subordinate notes with summaries of the questions; enough info for me to remind me of the questions if my client calls. This is just one of many tasks that need to be completed for this project.

When I get the answers to the questions, I mark this task as done. It would be great to be able to collapse the notes underneath this task. Why not just delete them? Well, I have many simultaneous projects with many clients. I may not get back to this project for a couple of days and I would like a reminder of what was asked and answered as I add tasks based on the answered questions.

This is a perfectly legitimate reason why collapsing is necessary in Task Management.

Matt

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Nick Brawne - June 23, 2008 11:50 AM

Jim, Apologies. I was not meaning to be condescending, just trying to point out that the finder is based on hiding and showing and seems to work pretty well.

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jesse - June 21, 2008 8:37 PM

Sorry to disappoint most of you, but I'm pretty much in Jim's camp. Maybe we just have smaller brains that get distracted (well me anyway), but for me there is something really pleasing about not having to worry about expanding and collapsing items in TaskPaper. I've got a pretty strong history (Hog Bay Notebook and Mori) with outliners, but in the end they just don't seem to provide much value to me in the realm of task management.

They seem to work OK when I start in the morning say... I make things all tidy, but as I work they just keep forcing decisions on me. Should I clean things up now and collapse some items? Will I need that later? Etc.

With TaskPaper my only decisions are what project should I be viewing. I use Command-L to instantly navigate to the project. And if I feel like I need to focus on something specific (which is the whole point of collapsing outlines) I just do Command-] to focus. TaskPaper limits my options, see everything, or focus on a single project. That coupled with quick navigation through Command-L provides me with everything that I need.

Now i know I probably haven't convinced most of you, but to me no collapsing outlines is one of the things that I like most about TaskPaper too.

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michael walsh - June 22, 2008 5:19 PM

I agree with Jesse on this point. Personally, I tend to lose track of collapsed items.

I have used outliners since Thinktank came out for the PC in the early 80's and I beta tested Thinktank and More for the Mac. As much as I like the outliner concept, it does not work for me as a "to do" manager.

I like the simplicity of Taskpaper and the ability to focus on a project ("hoist" in 80's terminology) is all I need.

Regards.

m

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Matthew Crider - June 22, 2008 9:52 PM

Wow! I can't believe this.

I used Grandview for task management for over a decade (instead of tags it had cross-references with view by cross-reference similar to your view by tag). Grandview had hoist and collapsing and in all of that time I never had a problem with task management or losing tasks or losing track of where I was. I'm having trouble even comprehending this as a problem.

Now, if you cannot code collapsing for some technical reason, then I would certainly understand that. But, if not, surely it can be coded so that those who don't want collapsing could be accommodated as well as those who do want it.

If you don't want outlining in TaskPaper, then I suggest that you write a companion outliner and call it StructurePaper or LevelPaper or OutlinePaper or whatever. I'd buy it.

Thanks.

Matt

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